Should we accelerate token emission? Tail emission?

I suppose language barriers can be a factor. In English here in America, there are two instances of “playing with words” one is a negative connotation without a doubt, and the other is positive because it is playing. The positive one is only really for joking matters - such as puns are a “play with words”, some forms of sarcasm, etc.

The negative, and the one your post would come off as, means you’re being deceitful, malicious, trying to sneak something under someone’s nose. A used car salesman will “play with words” to sell you a junker that breaks down in short order. “Jimmy knew Georgie was playing with words to pull a fast one on him.”

We need to stop getting sidetracked on literally every thread. This is getting ridiculous now. This thread is about the accelerated token emission and tail emission. Not about voting mechanisms. This is NOT a proposal by Reuben OR the core team - this was requested by community members over and over. This was stated VERY CLEARLY in the first post.

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In Czech connection “you are playing with words” is also negative.

I very much hope that the above technology will be implemented as soon as possible.
but I think:
1,Firo-fans who will strongly care about Firo’s future will not be less than holding 1000 Firo;
2,The master node threshold of only 1000 Firo has maximized the protection of the voice of small investors;1000Firo is the best balance between whales and samll investor,that is the best result the community has fought for a long time;Now it only costs $3,000/node, Shouldn’t the community be thinking about why the long-term decline?
3,If you don’t even have 1000Firo, why do people think that your speech(vote) in the community is responsible and constructive, and will help $Firo go to the moon.

So , if it is technically difficult to reach holders with less than 1000Firo now, ignoring them temporary will not cause vote distortion.(untill " @poramin oramin 's EVM voting system with Aura tech" successful development, and then included less-1000Firo-holders in the vote.)

Long-term price drop, why not give Firo a chance to go to the moon, power should be in hands of people who bear the financial risk.
Only $3,000 to set up one masternode at the time of my above comment
Let’s vote with masternodes
Let’s vote with masternodes
Let’s vote with masternodes

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As @DinkBlitz has mentioned, please stay on topic of this thread which is token/tail emission.

还有一个建议,可以不参考btc,全部销毁未开采的币,直接参考xmr永久每年增发0.5%。然后这0.5%再按比例分配给矿工,主节点,开发组。社区。

Because of the voting mechanism that is currently running that it is impossible to transparently display whether the person behind the ID is a Firo responsible-investor or an enemy.
Let masternode holders vote to decide. No need to express any objections in the community, waste time making unnecessary arguments, directly vote down if disagree,the forum will have a new look.

Writing the above comment, one masternode only $3,000,
Anyone in the forum who says that he is a small investor who needs to be protected, if have confidence in Firo, are a responsible investor, you can afford one masternode to vote for your opinion

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I’m not arguing for or against your premise. I am saying it has nothing to do with this thread’s topic. I’m telling you to stop derailing the topic to something different. This post is about token emission and tail emission - not voting. Masternode or otherwise. You’ve been told twice, this is the last time I’m saying it. If you want to talk about masternode voting, coin voting, etc. Make a fleshed-out proposal as a new thread. Not in threads that have nothing to do with that.

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I agree with asking for discipline inside threads (I was the first to ask for it in the first vote).

The problem is that it’s not very credible when the person asking for it doesn’t apply it to themselves and feeds off-topics (see your post on the expression “playing with words”, just above your post asking not to go off-topic).

You made a post including said remark referring to Reuben. Reuben took it negatively. You did not know it was negative and my intention was to explain why it was negative. The intention was to clear up the language barrier - so that you could understand why Reuben took it that way and for better communication in relation to the topic at hand.

Some such “off-topic” things are expected to happen. Notice I did not bring up that you were explaining to Reuben that, for you, it doesn’t carry a negative connotation. It’s clearly not trying to derail a conversation and talking about how dictionaries need to be rewritten. This is not the same as, or even equivalent to, someone turning around and proposing something entirely separate from what the thread is about.

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“The 2nd drawback is that for those that believe tokenomics should never change (for eg Bitcoin maxi types), this now sets a precedent that Firo can change its tokenomics. For some, cryptocurrency rules should be set from the beginning and never changed or else it’ll be subject to politics and outside influences.”

There are several things that I think we guys need to note about bitcoin:

  1. They don’t have to pay developers, people like satoshi, hal finney, nick, gavin, etc. contribute to bitcoin voluntarily. Why? because at that time there is no other cryptocurrency. Because they have the sense of experimenting instead of working. But now the condition is not like that.

  2. They don’t have to pay for media publication, branding, marketing, market liquidity, community management and building, and many more, because they get them automatically by just being bitcoin as the first cryptocurrency when everyone have no idea what that is. Hence, from marketing perspective bitcoin has gone beyond brand awareness that could drive strong demand to the product simply by just being born at the right time.

As a result, bitcoin holders are now enjoying that benefit created by a situation ten years a go. Which is not experienced by other project. However, institutional demand give another sustainable power to bitcoin since they can’t buy coin with low cap. There will be no function for bitcoin in the future other than being a souvenir, like gold but serve no other purposes other than being a reserve asset. The case is not the same with Firo since Firo is a decentralized privacy technology, which is a function, something that bring value to those wo uses them not only owned them. And, another thing about bitcoin, they are now not serving as a “cash” function as intended by the whitepaper due to the high transaction fee and long processing time as well as serious security risk on the lightning network, isn’t that a change from the initial plan? Correct me if I’m wrong.

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Right, people who hold a lot of coins will be more responsible for voting, instead of getting the chance to vote through community speech participation rating and so on, people who don’t hold coins can also vote at will, which is not a good development

If we would like to kill the project we would increase the emission of coin I have invested in another project called pascal coin before and they emitted the project most coins in just 4 year resulted in drop from 5$ per coin to just 0.012$ also project bytecoin although all coins are emitted the price only go down, It is important to know the coin inflation rate is a very important factor for any investor because it would drop price down now FIRO inflation rate is 9% nearly and the price droped down from 170$ to 3$ in 6 years. By saying inflation was high at coin start and price was high we forgot total coins exist at that time was little it was nearly 3000000 FIRO coin now it is 13000000 coin nearly and at that time the coins existed was fewer than now if I would suggest to change emission plan I would suggest decrease inflation rate not increasing it which will drive price up like what happened in Ethereum.

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Always good to discuss and no need for.personal attacks. Online people are more aggressive than in person so just have to understand that. Lots of internet heros around. For now ar this point we shouldnt speed up emissions.

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Not a problem for now, maybe in 2140 is. But maybe no crypto by then.

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Due to a greatly divided opinion and the other tokenomics proposal going ahead, we are not proceeding with this for now though I still strongly believe that we should tackle tail emission prior to the next halving.

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Let’s focus first on Elysium, Spark, Block Reward Adjustments…

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Btw, for the tail emission, please read this thread I wrote on Twitter:

An observation: Most agree that $LUNA / $UST failed because of a flawed design that they should have known about or that was ‘working as intended’. What if I told you #Bitcoin $BTC also has a flaw in its design as well because of its 21M limit?

Bitcoin’s security relies on miners securing it. Miners are paid by emissions (block rewards) and by fees. Every ~4 years, this emission halves and trends towards 0. The idea is that eventually miners will have their earnings completely in fees.

This thinking has several problems. First it assumes that fees alone would be sufficient to incentivize miners. The data shows that fees as a percent of the entire reward has been dropping. stats.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fees-percent-o… Image

https://stats.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fees-percent-of-reward/

Now I understand the counter argument which is true that because of increased Segwit adoption, there is an effective increase in block space and therefore it is normal to see this drop. But let’s look at another metric: the number of daily on-chain transactions.

As we can see, despite record adoption and user numbers, the number of Bitcoin transactions which measures on-chain activity has also not been growing for the past 5 years. data.nasdaq.com/data/BCHAIN/NT… Image

You may say, well this is because of the Lightning Network! Well, this doesn’t affect the problem at hand because miners don’t make any money from Lightning Network transactions: only channel opening/closing.

What is more likely is that while adoption has increased many still use exchanges to hold their coins and internal exchange transfers also serve as a kind of ‘scaling’. $ETH / alt L1s taking over the role of colored coins / OMNI USDT, etc have also has relieved this.

Bitcoin’s price has generally more than doubled after each halving so miners haven’t really felt the problem yet since while they get less coins, the USD value is still more. But this can’t be forever. There will come a point where $BTC becomes like a global commodity.

The problem with relying on fees alone is it means that the security of Bitcoin is then totally dependent on how much the blockchain is used. We have seen that there are ebbs and flows in Bitcoin transaction numbers regardless of the total market cap of Bitcoin

During frothy bull markets, transaction volumes go up, in bear markets, there’s a lot of spare capacity. However because miners currently still enjoy block rewards, they can continue mining consistently and plan in the knowledge that they will earn something.

Without block rewards, there can be massive variability in their earnings which has severe consequences on security. In fact there’s a Princeton study on it: “On the Instability of Bitcoin without the Block Reward”

Without a block reward, security is no longer tied to the amount of value secured by Bitcoin, it is tied to the amount of transactions that is transacted in Bitcoin which is a HUGE DIFFERENCE.

Some might argue, “well Bitcoin will still emit until year 2140” so we’re still good, we have time. Well even in 2030, there’s actually hardly any emissions left. It might as well be as good as 0.Image

Now of course, if Bitcoin’s price forever goes up, then all of this is fine, Even the small amounts of emission would be enough as long as the price increase is more than the effect of halvings. Guess what is also fine if it forever goes up? $LUNA $UST

While there might be several ways to deal with it, the simplest way would be to implement a tail emission such as what $XMR has done. This means there will forever be a steady base level of rewards that would be roughly tied to the value it secures.

The problem is the whole cult over “deflationary”, “limited max supply”, “21m coins only” and “infinite supply” which makes this difficult to implement on $BTC. Let’s debunk some of these.

Bitcoin currently is deflationary because it has increased purchasing power over time. But technically in terms of Bitcoins emitted it is still inflationary until 2140. It means as long as price goes up it is deflationary but if it stagnates then it’s inflationary.

There’s a difference between a fixed inflation rate vs arbitrary or massive inflation. Tail emissions are a fixed inflation rate. Stuff like $LUNA or $USD where new money is printed in massive amounts cannot be considered the same.

$LUNA’s printing is dictated by an algorithm in relation to the price of $UST while $USD’s printing is dictated by the Fed. Tail emission in comparison is dictated by a rule agreed upon by the community at large and can only be changed with wide consensus.

So while technically $LUNA or coins that have tail emissions like $XMR both have ‘infinite supply’ they are TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. The key is not ‘infinite supply’ but the rate of inflation and who gets to determine it.

Don’t get me wrong, I want Bitcoin to succeed and have a good portion of my net worth in it. But whether I keep it there depends on whether the greater Bitcoin community will acknowledge its shortcomings and think it through themselves rather than parroting catchy shortcuts.

Don’t let market size lull you into a false sense of security as we have seen it can all come crashing down in an instant. The problem with $LUNA and $BTC is of course different but should be a warning nevertheless.

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we talk here about FIRO that is a small project compared to Bitcoin we do not have to worry about big problem, big projects will solve this. our target should only focus about bigger market share at the moment.

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If you want to increase inflation of coin money supply it will reduce price more and more and if developers and holders are disappointed with price then, more inflation would kill the project. If we think about reducing inflation by tail emission and convert to monero and Etherum pattern which mean reduce inflation now from 11% to may be 0.5% it would increase price and every one will be happy.

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