A new proposal has been posted to the Firo Crowdfunding System.
- Title: Native FIRO payments in Meile dVPN
- Author: MathNodes
- Proposal type: Miscellaneous
- Link: click here
Use this topic to discuss this proposal!
A new proposal has been posted to the Firo Crowdfunding System.
Use this topic to discuss this proposal!
I created this proposal as I will be the developer integrating FIRO into Meile. I am the CEO of MathNodes and the core developer of Meile. I also work on additions to the Sentinel blockchain along with various other privacy communities. We have two other part time developers, but they will not be working on this part of the app. We also have infrastructure admins that maintain the vast array of servers we have for various projects. One such instance is our Firo ElectrumX server that we recently set up a few weeks ago. (firo.mathnodes.com:50002)
Iām seeking funding for this integration as I would like to make native FIRO an option in the only dVPN that currently accepts privacy coins. I have a strong passion for FIRO as I think it is a great project and would love to assist in raising exposure for the project.
As a side note, the Sentinel Growth DAO is funding an advertising campaign for Meile in the coming days. We may make an appearance on the MoneroTopia stream as part of a discussion of what Meile can offer. Unfortunately, we will not be attending MoneroTopia this year, but as part of the advertising campaign we expect to create posts about the FIRO integration.
It would give me great pleasure if the community adopted this proposal, as funding is a necessary component to furthering our resources for future development and support for FIRO.
devwarrior:
will look on monday, tuesday
Antibit:
The additional implementation of Firo payment is good, but I do not know how much it will be in demand
devwarrior:
I looked at the prop ā¦ I think no need ā¦ bolehvpn already takes firo and is a known and 100% trusted entity. Not down on the prop owner but the market is not huge. I vote No
Reuben Yap:
I wouldnāt recommend bolehvpn anymore. Itās no longer run by me and not really maintained
devwarrior:
Ok
I donāt think we should support third party VPNs anyway
So itās a No from me
Does vulltr support firo?
If so you could run a VPN on their VPS
But personally I would not run a third party VPN anywhere
1 week dev full time? I doubt more than a couple of hours ā¦assumption they already support at least one utxo coin ā¦just cutnpaste
Anwar P.:
This isnāt about a VPN, itās about implementing direct Firo payments to it.
devwarrior:
meta data leakage
Reuben Yap:
Anyway I do feel the integration cost is on the high side esp if itās using nowpayments unless thereās something Iām missing
But maybe Iām a bad judge of cost
devwarrior:
It is probably more than I suggested above but certainly less than they asked. If they are American devs then a good rule of thumb is 40usd/hour
rehrar:
Hm. This one is interesting.
On the grand scheme of things, itās not overly expensive. But given Firoās resource difficulties right now, it may be too much.
devwarrior:
I vote No!
Anyway my reasoning is this: We are a skint privacy coin and any use of THIRD PARTY VPN leaks meta-data like IP address and much more. They cannot see you actual message (probably ā¦ without mitm caps) but enough info about your connection is both saleable and dangerous to you. Call me paranoid but evidence is about you in this world.
I recommend we ask them to do it for free or 1$, as a service to cypherpunk and privacy.
If I may suggest: maybe we need to find some MM liquidity streams ā¦ DCRDEX when Firo trading is enabled; but others. Frankly here in the CFC I think our main job is 1. 100% support our developers who are among the most skilled and educated. One of them has a double degree in math ā¦ the others are so much smarter than me
Nrsimha:
No
Fiend ish:
Aye
I read some of the concerns in TG channel so let me spend a minute to address them.
Also, the thing with centralized VPNs, is that intelligence agencies can issue a forward warrant to the centralized company and monitor any real time traffic coming from a user. This is not possible in a decentralized architecture as intelligence agencies have no way of knowing what node a user will connect to next. Plus, the number of node runners is in the hundreds, spread throughout the globe, so it is impossible to get a omniscient surveillance of the network.
That aside, I will have to do multiple binary builds of this application. One for OS X Silicon, One for OS X intel, One for Windows, and various Linux architecture builds. This typically takes 7 hours to build, test, and make available on github and our website, assuming everything is fine.
With all that said, I am open to reducing the price. $150 as mentioned by @xorzero is insane. No one in their right minds would spend all this time for a coin integration, backend code, and binary builds for such a low payment. It would be great if I could operate on a ājust do it for FIROā basis, but my time is valuable and it should be paid as such for creating exposure to the network via another privacy preserving application. I can go as low as half the initial offer, as I know FIRO is not a huge project, nor the community support like Monero.
Iāll update the proposal to ask for 400 FIRO. My reason for initially creating a proposal and seeking funding is to establish myself and my team as interested in further expanding the FIRO community. This takes resources and the more I have at my disposal, the more I can contribute in the future.
I hope that sounds reasonable. Please let me know what you guys think.
Funding target changed from ā800.0 FIROā to ā400.0 FIROā
For record only. Full chat starts at Telegram: Contact @firocfc
Antibit, [10/25/2024 3:01 PM]
āNoā at the current asking price, āYesā if they can lower the price
Antibit, [10/25/2024 3:03 PM]
In fact, it also seemed to me that the cost of the work was a little overpriced
Antibit, [10/25/2024 3:05 PM]
Iām talking about the volume of work, not the price
Antibit, [10/25/2024 3:11 PM]
Although I donāt really like the idea of decentralized VPNs. An āenthusiastā on the output server can easily catch all logs, accesses and passwords
Reuben Yap, [10/25/2024 3:14 PM]
What would a fair price be ?
Antibit, [10/25/2024 3:14 PM]
I think /2
devwarrior, [10/26/2024 3:20 AM]
what is /2 bro?
devwarrior, [10/26/2024 4:55 AM]
we done here? ā¦ is a bad prop for firo
devwarrior, [10/26/2024 5:01 AM]
150USD I can say yes
devwarrior, [10/26/2024 5:05 AM]
convince me
rehrar, [10/26/2024 8:14 AM]
Nay
rehrar, [10/26/2024 8:14 AM]
Agree
Reuben Yap, [10/26/2024 8:14 AM]
He meant divided by two
Antibit, [10/26/2024 9:48 PM]
Funding target changed from ā800.0 FIROā to ā400.0 FIROā
Yes from me
Antibit, [10/26/2024 9:57 PM]
I donāt trust dVPNSā¦ āenthusiastsā may intercept packets.
This is the same as saying you donāt trust community hosted, decentralized infrastructure. It is well known NordVPN collects data on its usersā¦ along with every other centralized VPN out there. A decentralized approach reduces this probability as not everyone in the community is technically adept to doing this kind of packet analysis and MitM SSL attacks.
You misunderstood me. I did not compare your decentralized VPN with centralized VPNs services. Any VPN is evil and nasty to me if the exit node (Dedic/VDS) does not belong to me. Catch my thought
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 12:20 AM]
If someone is looking for ironclad privacy and security, then clearly any VPN, decentralized or not, is not going to be able to provide that. However, for common users who wish to mask their IP address while surfing without degrading their experience with latency like tor/Lokinet/hopr/nym, VPNs provide a real benefit.
As you may know, if you dont use a VPN for everything, you are essentially advertising your location to a bunch of strangers on the internet and also giving data brokers a profile of your internet usage. Would you tell some hobo on the city street whereabouts you live? I feel the same way. Also, I have a centralized VPN (Cryptostorm, IVPN) on my OpenWRT router as Sentinel currently doesnāt have a client for such devices yet (MathNodes is in the process of building one). This provides me with enough privacy and security I need while I do things on the internet. My main LAN is not reachable to hackers unless I do some port forwarding on the VPN. As an added layer, I use Meile on my desktops from time to time and some of the Sentinel Android apps on my devices. This gives me 2 hops. Very satisfactory.
Furthermore, the unique thing that dVPNs provide which the centralized alternatives cant is residential nodes. Because I use a cVPN on my router, services such as Coinbase dont let me login because they use IP intelligence services to limit datacenter IP addresses. As such, I subscribe to a residential node (which are identifiable in Meile) and I have no problem using these services. It also works for watching YouTube now that they require everyone to login from datacenter IPs/cVPNs.
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 12:27 AM]
Large scale residential nodes on dVPNs have the ability to reshape all those pesky IP intelligence services as internet usage will become indistingusable.
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 12:48 AM]
Finally, Sentinel (Meile and other apps) offer two protocols to users: Wireguard and v2ray. V2ray was introduced to Sentinel in February of 2023 as the protocol was designed to bypass the GFW of China, along with provide uncensorbale internet for places like Iran, China and Russia. Sentinel has built a large community in these locales and our clients have been reported to work for most users in these countries.
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 12:56 AM]
One more thing to your pointā¦ If you dont like not controlling the exit node (which I can completely understand), but if you setup your own VPN to tunnel solely your traffic through, then this is really no different than using your home internet as your fingerprint will be the same whenever you surf. However, if you instead setup your tunnel on the VPS and run a Sentinel node on that same VPS then you have the feature that other users will be using your VPS to tunnel their traffic thus increasing the anonymity set and reducing the likelihood of fingerprinting your internet usage, but you are still in control of the exit node and you get to get paid in crypto for sharing your bandwidth on the VPS
Antibit, [10/27/2024 1:32 AM]
I would categorically not do this)
Antibit, [10/27/2024 1:36 AM]
But everyone has their own goals and objectives
Antibit, [10/27/2024 1:52 AM]
By the way, what kind of payment do your nodes receive?
Nrsimha, [10/27/2024 2:14 AM]
If you set your VPS as Sentinel node and other user will tunnel some illegal traffic through that (e.g. child pornography) then you get into pretty bad problems, no?
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 2:19 AM]
Right. Whenever allowing strangers to use any of your things you are taking a risk. You need to do a cost/benefit ratio whenever you host public infrastructure. My solution to this, as MathNodes hosts 25 such nodes, is I pay for VPS with crypto and use a false name and anonaddy email account when signing up.
If your goal is to ensure privacy for more people, and you are willing to take the risk, make sure your OPSEC is in place to CYA (cover your ass)
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 2:21 AM]
90% of our infrastcture costs are paid anonymously with Monero and Litecoin with only 10% having identifiable information (a couple of my validator nodes)
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 2:35 AM]
Also, this is a very real risk. Last month some node runners on Mysterium who were running nodes from their homes in Germany were raided for exactly this reason. The node runners immediately informed they were sharing their bandwidth on Mysterium to provide privacy for regular folk. Mysterium then worked with authorities to show them the session tx (session ID to node ID) to prove that those node runners indeed had a malicious user using their network.
This session tx is also on Sentinel, and I wrote a large thread on twitter about why having a transparent chain is beneficial to node runners in these circumstances. Ofc, it can be a determinant to regular users who use a KYC account. This is why Meile already offers services payable with Monero. Also, we are looking to amend the Sentinel chain with ZK proofs that would shield the identifiable userās wallet from session creation txs, but could have a proof by the node runner to prove their innocence in such cases.
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 2:39 AM]
The main form of payment is in the native coin, DVPN. But, if you understand how Cosmos works with its IBC relayers, nodes can also be paid in ATOM, OSMO and various other cosmos coins. Meile allows payments to nodes in these IBC coins; provided the node accepts payment of them.
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 3:02 AM]
I personally would never run a dvpn node from my house. There is more risk then benefit for me. Others may want to take the risk because it can potentially change the landscape of the internet, plus they are privacy cypherpunks; while others may just not care or donāt understand the risk. Plus, Iāve been in trouble with a certain three letter agency before and I donāt want to have to go through that again.
Antibit, [10/27/2024 3:15 AM]
How much is this in dollars/month? For reference
Antibit, [10/27/2024 3:18 AM]
Our anonymity set is much higher, fortunately
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 3:18 AM]
Really depends on the usage. Since most nodes get added to the subscription plans, this can bring in about $6 a month at current DVPN price. However, Meile is currently the only app that allows users to pay nodes directly in a pay-as-go model. Some nodes I have have made $12 a month because of being on a plan and receiving direct payments.
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 3:19 AM]
Yes, I know this. Why I like Firo
Antibit, [10/27/2024 3:21 AM]
Thank you for the information. In any case, I have already voted positively for your proposal. The condition was a reduction in cost. You are still an unknown person to us, so financial issues are resolved carefully in such cases
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 3:22 AM]
Completely understood
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/27/2024 3:23 AM]
I also like Sparky. He is a cute mascot.
Antibit, [10/27/2024 3:24 AM]
He invented it @FiroFiend
Antibit, [10/27/2024 3:26 AM]
And I saw he also voted positively, even for a higher price)
Reuben Yap, [10/27/2024 10:37 AM]
I personally think itās a good thing to encourage esp with the revised pricing and Iām all for increased usage of firo in goods and services.
I may have missed it but how is the integration flow with nowpayments?
Fiend ish, [10/27/2024 10:50 PM]
Well I use VPNās and want to pay in Firo rather than having to keep converting to others. It annoys me that Firo has a very high anonymity set with fast confirm to boot, yet has been largely overlooked.
Obviously @freQniK has done his homework when looking to cover his you know what.
The big picture for me, is itās a vote of confidence in Firo for people looking for a little extra protection, rather than Monero being the only de facto option for the privacy centric economy.
devwarrior, [10/28/2024 4:20 AM]
ok ā¦ I get it ā¦ 320 and I vote Yes. That is a dayās work 8 hrs at 40
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/28/2024 6:20 AM]
Very similar to BTCPay in that with BTCPay we send a ācreate invoiceā request with some predefined parameters and the response is a URL we open in the userās browser.
With NOW, there is actually two requests we have to make, a ācreate invoiceā whose response will include an āiidā and a ācreate paymentā whose response will be an āpidā , we then form the proper URL with these ids and open the users web browser to pay.
Similar with BTCPay we have a background thread that checked the invoice every 10 seconds for successful payment and then a request is made to our custom API to add the user to the dvpn subscription plan on the Sentinel chain.
The largest wait time is for the confirmations with NOW and NOW processing the payments. BTCPay we have set to 0 confirmations so payment is made pretty quick with that.
Because NOW is much slower than BTCPay it would be wise if we let the user know it could take 5-10 minutes within the app. Just thinking of this now.
freQniK | MathNodes, [10/28/2024 12:31 PM]
Canāt comprise furtherā¦ I have a hungry 10 month old kitty cat to feed
Category changed from āMiscellaneousā to āCommitteeā
Status changed from āFunding Requiredā to āWIPā
Antibit, [10/29/2024 4:04 AM]
As far as I could see, rehrar agreed with my prop to reduce the price
Antibit, [10/29/2024 4:06 AM]
rehrar, [10/29/2024 4:06 AM]
indeed
rehrar, [10/29/2024 4:06 AM]
did they reduce?
rehrar, [10/29/2024 4:06 AM]
I missed that
Antibit, [10/29/2024 4:06 AM]
Yep, /2
rehrar, [10/29/2024 4:07 AM]
yes from me then
Antibit, [10/29/2024 4:10 AM]
In that case, need 1 more vote. Because devwarriorās āYesā was uncertain
AJay, [10/29/2024 4:20 AM]
Yes. Current proposed funding at 400 FIRO
sproxet, [10/29/2024 4:12 PM]
Aye
devwarrior, [10/30/2024 1:26 AM]
Aye
devwarrior, [10/30/2024 1:31 AM]
LGTM
Update on Native FIRO payments in Meile dVPN - @freQniK
6 out of the 7 CFC members have weighed in and expressed their approval in support of advancing the proposal while a members have not voted yet.
Given that a majority has voted Aye for this proposal, It has Passed . Thank You
Aye
@Fiendish
@firofan
@rehrar
@Dev_warrior
sproxet
Nay
@Nrsimha
Not yet voted
@rasikhmorani
UI Components for FIRO NOWPayments in Plan subscription dialog are complete and tested with some updates on improving UX of loading plans that were long overdue.
Next couple days will be NOWPayments backend. Shell is in place, just need to fill it in and test/treat edge cases.
Tonight, I successfully completed the first payment of a Sentinel subscription plan with Firo in Meile. After a couple little hiccups, everything is working pretty smooth and i should have the final commit in the next couple of days; which i will post here.
Also, fooling around with the API, i may include UX enhancements to NOWPayments within Meile by making everything payable directly in the app instead of opening the userās browser window. I also thought of a way to include unique payout addresses - something we will roll out in future releases.
Anyhow, once i tidy some things up i can fully test it next week and then merge the commits into OS X and Windows then produce all the binary builds.
Shouldnt be long nowā¦
Integration is complete on both Linux and Windows systems. OS X I have to catch up the branch by about 5 or so commits before the following commit is added to OS X. Will be able to do this on Thursday. After that, I can create the builds and test on each OS. This release will be v2 proper (not beta). Expected to have it on 11/14 for all OSes and will make this FCS proposal complete. Will update when that occurs.
UPDATE 9/11/2024:
All branches are caught up.
OS X (Apple Silicon) release of v2.0.0 is now out. Windows will follow on Saturday or Sunday and the github release page will be updated. As mentioned, building all the Linux flavors (Fedora, Ubuntu versions) because of GLIBC version dependencies takes about 7 hours between loading the VMs, copying the code and building the distribution packages.
Will have the following release page updated with all the packages and binaries by the FCS deadline of Wednesday. Anyone can test out the OS X release if they wish in the meantime.
Native FIRO payments have been thoroughly tested.
UPDATE: 11/11/2024
Windows build has been added to the github release. Linux builds on Monday.
Update 13/11/2024
All major builds are done. I also updated the integration to use 0 confirmations to speed up the process. Website has been updated with download links and the firo insignia on the download page. This proposal is now considered completed on our end.
We will be having the official Sentinel twitter and TG announcements channel make the official press release as this not only marks Firo integration but our proper v2 release. Should expect to see the announcement on Twitter on Thursday.
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/14/2024 7:42 AM]
Hey guys, we consider our proposal completed. There will be a proper press release from the official Sentinel twitter and telegram announcement channel in regards to Firo integration and our proper v2 release. The press release should happen on Thursday
Please see the updated post here:
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/14/2024 7:45 AM]
Also, the director of the Sentinel Foundation is interested in a collabs with Firo as a kind of a cross marketing campaign now that Sentinel supports firo through Meile.
Maybe we can form a TG group with Project Autonomy (Sentinel Foundation), myself, the correspondent for Sentinel (Seventh) and any of your team members. Lmk if this of interest to you guys.
Reuben Yap, [11/14/2024 11:10 AM]
Sounds good can involve me
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/15/2024 2:44 AM]
Hey, Sentinelās press secretary wanted a quote from you guys about integrating Firo into our dVPN for Sentinel.
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/15/2024 2:44 AM]
Sorry, if this is not the best place to ask
devwarrior, [11/16/2024 2:26 AM]
What would that entail do you know?
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/16/2024 2:28 AM]
Reuben sent me one last night and I forwarded it to the socials guy. He said heād get something on the wire today, havent seen it yet, but it will come.
devwarrior, [11/16/2024 2:28 AM]
Ok, thanks
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/16/2024 2:29 AM]
We are small team with large workload
devwarrior, [11/16/2024 2:29 AM]
I do understand I work with a small proj also
devwarrior, [11/16/2024 2:30 AM]
And I do appreciate the way you handled our questions here
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/16/2024 2:31 AM]
Thanks. I am passionate about privacy and Firo really caught my eye last year and Iām honored for the opportunity
devwarrior, [11/16/2024 2:31 AM]
You earned it ā¦ was just a price nego afaics
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/17/2024 6:19 AM]
Itās in review for the wire. Will take a few days
freQniK | MathNodes, [11/17/2024 6:20 AM]
Not sure what a chain wire is if it is on X, but he paid for a spot for the announcement. A quote from Reuben is added as well
Reuben Yap, [11/17/2024 4:56 PM]
Probably a PR Newswire thing
Payment of 400.0 FIRO sent
Status changed from āWIPā to āCompletedā