Egalitarianism is a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people. How is egalitarianism relevant to Zcoin POW mining?
I do not think egalitarianism should be the primary focus of Zcoin, but rather an unintended consequence of changing mining from MTP to CPU mining with RandomX. The primary focus of Zcoin should always be private, anonymous transactions.
Currently, Zcoin can be mined by CPU and GPUs though are most efficient on GPUs. Egalitarianism, that is, permitting anyone with a computer to mine Zcoin through RandomX will redistribute the mining from people who are relatively wealthy and able to afford sophisticated GPU mining rigs to those who may be financially less well off, but who have access to a computer. This redistribution of mining capability is important as it has the following effects on the Zcoin network:
the more people who have access to mining in theory will mean that the network will grow and become more secure. We can see that with Monero the hashing power jumped after they switched to RandomX
crypto shouldnât just be for the rich and well off from developed countries. Everyone should have the ability to use crypto but this isnât the case. Someone from Sudan may want to run a mining node of Zcoin because they believe in private and anonymous transactions but canât afford to spend $3000 on a GPU mining rig. The average monthly income for a Sudanese is less than $10/month. Think about that. How can someone like this mine Zcoin? Impossible. But on an old computer it is with RandomX.
You may think that mining egalitarianism is a non-issue, but concentration of mining power is a massive problem in crypto. 65% of mining is dominated by Chinese in Bitcoin. All of it is ASIC. It requires thousands of dollars to buy a miner. It is mining for the wealthy only. MTP is better, but the focus is still on GPU mining. At less than $10/month, how long will it take our Sudanese friend to save enough money to buy a GPU mining rig?
The point, is that the easier you make Zcoin to mine, the more people will mine from all over the world, and not just from Europe, North America and Thailand. Zcoin is small now, but it doesnât have to be.
If you open mining up to everyone in the world via CPU focused mining with RandomX, it will grow massively whilst still being secure and anonymous.
Note: you can still use your GPU rig to mine RandomX but it is not as efficient as with a CPU.
I have a CPU only and many person like me have only a CPU. I tried a lot day and night but MTP is not for CPU. So why only GPU? There must be some algorithm where GPU may earn more but CPU holders also should get a chance. Please do something where CPU holders can also mine, whatever little it may be.
This is an excerpt of our community meeting that relates to the POW change.
Kristy-Leigh Minehan (OhGodAGirl) one of the creators of ProgPOW explained the rationale of the algorithm, some arguments for and against proof of work vs proof of stake, current issues with MTP, the difference in approaches with RandomX, and fielded questions.
Since no one has suggested Hybrid PoW & PoS,While changing pow algo to say progpow, would this be an option that could be considered or is PoW the preferred consensus method currently?
Thanks for the link Reuben, it was an interesting listen.
It seems like the concerns you have regarding potential bot mining of Zcoin using RandomX are not shared by Kristy. She actually said that they were good actors that helped to secure the network.
My takeaway is that your own personal biases are coming to the forefront which are anti-CPU mining. As you have a prominent position within Zcoin you are also pushing hard against this, and even though you say it is the communities choice what mining algo is chosen, it seems more that it is your choice and preference.
Any valid arguments pro-CPU mining are shot down, even when when one of the devs like Kristy contradicts your assertion, it doesnât seem to matter.
For all the people here myself included who would like to mine on our phones or on our average pc (sorry Rueben we cant pay $2000+ on a GPU rig), i suppose we just need to pack our bags and head over to Monero.
One other gripe, why did you not put up a notice here on the forum in advance of the Q&A? I would have liked to participate.
Anyway. If you let your biases get in the way, this project will fail.
Kristy actually doesnât think RandomX is a good fit for Zcoin but for different reasons in that we are directly competing against Monero for that class of miner. But I also brought up a different argument that well GPUs also have this problem too if ETH or another coin remains the predominant GPU mining power.
However in my opinion I donât agree with Kristyâs assertion on that and that competing with Monero on RandomX isnât fatal or a battle we âhave to winâ. Because if the profitability of Zcoin is high, CPU miners would then mine Zcoin if itâs more profitable than doing it on Monero barring other circumstances.
There is however one big problem though that affects this analysis. Monero is a top 10 coin with very established liquidity and utility, we canât match that yet as a much younger project.
Kristy in her other talks, talks about getting tribal miners vs nomadic miners and Moneroâs miners are quite tribalistic even mining it when they have other better more profitable coins to mine. While we are getting there, we are subject to this possibility of being 51% attacked (at least until chain locks comes about) or heavily dominated by a few players that will mine us when profitable then sell the coins.
It is also understandable, Monero is a more âblue chipâ privacy coin that is here to stay while we are a relatively a riskier choice. Now tell me if I were a CPU miner with botnet resources (costing me almost nothing), which would I be more comfortable hodling and knowing that it will retain value? This doesnât mean that I donât believe Zcoin wonât catch up to Monero in the long term but Iâm also realistic of our current position and size.
She also talks about a much more diverse group of GPU miners in the talk if Iâm not mistaken when compared to CPU miners.
Right now our miner community is entirely GPU based and has been so for a long time so we also have to consider whether we can rebuild the entire mining community which already is starting to acquire some tribalistic miners. People who mine with GPUs have a different profile than CPU miners.
I am also not a believer of mobile phone mining more because I think the money you can earn mining on your phone will most likely not be able to match the damage to your phoneâs battery. Perhaps you can try doing a RandomX mining on your phone and see how much that nets you a month!
I am of course expressing my strong opinion here, I am not hiding that. I am super passionate on this and have experience and my own reasoning (which I have shared above). However I cannot force it down peopleâs throats and if the community feels strongly about it (which I donât see above) then RandomX would be adopted.
Sorry, I didnât see that, I assumed you would pin that sort of announcement to the top of the forum. Also, you are using DIscord? A little strange I think as it has some serious privacy issues. For a privacy coin to use a privacy invasive tool like Discord is contradictory. If you are not sure what I mean, read their terms of service here:
Anyhow, that is just a sample from their privacy policy. I value my privacy which is why i am interested in Zcoin, but I will not sacrifice that privacy and join Discord and have my data sold to 3rd parties as well as being tracked. There are other private alternatives like RocketChat, Keybase or Matrix.
What Kristy actually said about RandomX is below:
@ Timestamp 8:22
so by adopting randomx you are just competing with monero for the hashrate. if the community thinks they can win that fight, sure, but i donât its a very good fight to win.
in mining your competing for one type of hardware base, right? so your options are only gpus, cpus, fpgs or asics. if you adopt randomx you need to make sure that youâre using your own custom parameters for a start but then youâre going to be competing with monero on all that cpu userbase so when a miner decides whether theyâre going to mine monero or zcoin most cpu based miners theyâre actually gpu and cpu. so theyâre trying to mine whatever is the most profitable and right now monero will always win on that profitability choice. they might put their gpus to zcoin but they wont necessarily put their cpus to it.
some people have concerns about the botnets on monero. i actually dont. sorry the botnets with randomx. i actually dont have a concern. i have a unique view
point on that simple because ive observed how the botnet operators act on monero theyâre actually good stewards of the network, they invest in pools they invest in projects and they do actually help the network but aside its not very good for optics
monero had a vision of using mining happening on every single phone they believe strongly in mobile phone mining so that is really why randomx was created
The issue about competing against monero is so short sight and narrow minded, its hard to believe youâre making a case out of it. You seem to think that all any miner cares about is making money, and that they do not care about zcoin itself, or its privacy. That is your mistake, to assume this. I think if you made a poll, results might show something different, that some miners mine at a loss, just as on Bitcoin , but they do anyway because they believe in the project and want to help secure it.
Not everything is a competition even though you and Kristy think so. It shouldnât matter to you where Zcoin stands in the rankings. If people believe in the project they will mine. I donât understand your mindset. You see everything through monetary glasses as though the profitability directly impacts you personally. If Zcoin were decentralized, with no biases like yours then why should you care what the community chooses? WHy do you personally care about the profitability? Le the miners decide. Blue chip or not, cpu mining would be a choice, just like the monero community chose without influence from devs or monero reps.
The point about botnets has already been debunked by the monero community, Kristy however you are still harping on about this. WHy? Also again, the size is irrelevant. Hashrate whether gpu, asic or cpu based is hashrate. The only reason I can think of as to why you are placing so much emphasis on the small size of Zcoin in relation to Monero for example is that you want the price to increase so that you can gain financially. However the price should be irrelevant to you as a rep. Money shouldnât be your primary concern. Usability and adoption should be.
Have you looked at the Zcoin mining pool stats lately? One pool controls 97Ghs of the total 120 Ghs ⌠thatâs 80% of the hashrateâŚone pool 2miners.com . Youâre concerned about 51% attack, and you should be, but not from CPU mining.
Is everything about profit for you? Donât you ever think of anything besides money? Seriously this asian mentality is getting tiresome. At least consider the benefit of running a node on your phone to help secure the network and oneâs transactions as a beneficial innovation and feature. Also also I suppose you have some evidence to support this claim that mining on your phone drains your battery? and even if it does, does it matter? To the people who want to run a node on their phone i doubt it.
ANd how would the community go about this and make it happen?
Please read my post again, I said I DONâT agree with Kristyâs assertion that it is a battle with Monero just because we adopt RandomX and that weâre competing for the same hardware. There is a way to co-exist with both coins using RandomX if we were at the same level.
But we arenât. At least not yet.
To me the problem is the botnets and the centralization of hashrate which has already been demonstrated on another coin that adopted RandomX even before Monero which is Loki. It was also demonstrated on our own coin itself.
I am posting this with Simon Harmanâs permission.
We already have two strong real evidence that CPU mining as a concept doesnât work at least for smaller cap coins and comes at enormous risk. Monero is big enough and âblue chipâ enough to bear that risk. It is a 1.3 billion market cap coin, it can handle a few botnet operators and still be decentralized enough. Heck but even the Monero devs were against RandomX but followed the community will on it. Fluffy liked the ASICable SHA3 better.
And the thing is that these botnet operators can switch in and mine Zcoin to hell when it turns profitable, dump it and then return to mining Monero with no consequences.
Well you can mine other coins using phones now. Yet I donât know anyone who does it on a serious basis and they wonât even make up 1% of the hashrate of any coin. Those that did have âmobile miningâ were not actually mining but drawing from a pool of rewards âElectroneumâ in other words an elaborate airdrop (https://captainaltcoin.com/electroneum-etn-mining/)
If Iâm going to earn a couple of cents for the whole year of mining and destroy my phone when I have other devices that can do it better and cheaper, then no Iâm not going to mine with my phone. Call it "Asian mentalityâ, I call it reality. To me if youâre contributing a drop of water to a sea, youâre not really contributing much security at all.
Just my 2 cents on mining - I do not think CPU friendly algos are the way to go now, certainly not in the year 2020. Running a mining node on your phone doesnât really help the network at all as the hashrates it contribute is literally insignificant. Same goes for CPU, unless you have a botnet .
Maybe in terms of price and marketcap Monero is bigger but why is that your only concern?
Do you not see how one mininpool controls 81% of the total hash on Zcoin? Compared to Monero the largest pool only controls 30.5% of the total hash.
I think your argument is bunk, to be totally honest. Your point also about botnets is bunk and not proven. Botnets dumping is a purely hypothetical But even if it isnât and that would happen, so what? Why should that be a concern? Isnât that capitalism?
Regarding mobile phone mining. Sigh. You did not get the point about running a node on my phone to secure the network. Just like in Bitcoin, you have miners and you have nodes. They complement each other. I could run a node on an old phone to help the network.
A node is a device which stores the entire Blockchain and runs a Bitcoin client software that peruses all transaction data and the Blockchain to check if they conform to Bitcoin protocol.
But if you donât see that as beneficial, well, what to do. If i want to use my old phone as a node or to mine, why shouldnât i? regardless of battery problems. I havenât found any articles about this issue yet relating to Randomx phone mining.
How do you think oceans formed? Drop by drop.
I understand that youâre trying to discredit phone mining by using the example of a failed shitcoin but that doesnât fly, as Zcoin is not like Electroneum. But from that page I will throw something back at you, specifically this:
The miner runs in the background and consumes virtually no processing power, battery life, or data. Mined coins are paid out regularly and users can spend them immediately from the app at a growing list of online and offline stores that accept ETN as payment,â* the project explains how this âminingâ works.
I am not advocating phone only mining. That would be insane. I am saying that you could use your phone as a validating node, or to mine if you so choose, but the primary mining machine would still be a proper computer.
This is exhausting, as you have made up your mind and no argument will sway your opinion. I feel sorry for the Zcoin community that they live under such a centralized team.
Iâm going to avoid spaghetti posting as it may not be conducive to a good conversation here.
In relation to the statement about mining draining batteries, hereâs a citation . There is a significant amount of evidence that attempting to compete with I7s using a phone processor isnât exactly kind to battery life.
Accounting for price and economic incentives is a fact of life, CPU mining opens the door for both massive centralization and difficulty increases away from the community.
@reuben what are we looking at complexity wise to remove MTP for any algorithm change?
An article from 2018 where the author, uses the coinhive script to test battery performance.
'To simulate how such an encounter could go, I loaded the covert Coinhive JavaScript onto a website and subjected several devices to it for an hour. â
Coinhive was mining using the Cryptonight algo.
This does not relate to the RandomX algorithm battery performance in 2020 used by Monero.
Besides, from what i found, nobody is uing their phone to mine monero as there isnât a randomx mining program for Android or iPhone, so any conjecture regarding supposed battery life is useless, is it not?
Dude from where i seat seems like your twisting the words of Reuben and even rasikâŚtake a breather and try to understand what they saying before implying this this or that that.
While I believe everyone should have the opportunity to express their opinion - 1337n0m4d has posted page-after-page-after-page trying to convince everyone that they are right - and has now taken it too far by implying that Reuben has a hidden agenda or is biased.
I have been following this project since before MTP was implemented and Iâm offended by 1337n0m4dâs posts - and - âmethinks thou dost protest too muchâ 1337n0m4d âŚ
Reuben has the right to express his opinion without being attacked - and any attack should not be tolerated. I respect Reubenâs opinion, as well as the opinion of other members of the Zcoin team.
This is a very complex issue and we need to get as much âvalidâ information and input about the pros and cons of the various options before we can have everyone weigh-in on potential implementation options.
Just my opinion âŚ
According to Kristy, it takes about 2 weeks of coding give or take and then maybe another few weeks of testing.
Anyway it isnât so urgent but if we are going ahead with it, would be good to do it before the end of founderâs rewards in September thatâs my thoughts.
Another option is to take the risk to tweak MTP to reduce proof size (maybe from 200 kB to 80 kB) which maybe just involves changing some params and rejigging some of it which can be a stop gap solution. It really the bandwidth and blockchain bloat that really irks me about MTP, otherwise I personally would be happy to continue with it.
Why I really like ProgPOW is that besides being a great algorithm, still keeping our existing miner base, audited, and also quite a high profile algo (and if we do it weâll be the biggest coin adopting it first), it is a chance to gain more GPU miners esp when thereâs a huge existing base that may soon be looking for a new coin to mine if Eth is switching off to PoS.
As for pool centralization, in my opinion MTP is causing this as itâs such a bandwidth hog (every share needs to have the 200 kB proof) and it also requires a custom stratum to handle the larger payload. This means that only a few pools can do it, and only a few pools can profit. However right now I donât know why everyone is crowding on 2miners when there are perfectly valid alternatives with slightly lower fees even!
If there were no truth to the stereotype that asians are obsessed about money it wouldnât be a stereotype, would it. Sterotypes exist because there is truth to them.
Not sorry to upset your delicate sensibilities. Please grow a sack.
There is no need to throw in racist remarks to make a point. It doesnât lend credibility to your argument 1337n0m4d. Interestingly, you make an argument for âcommunities in Somaliaâ to take on RandomX to uplift people out of poverty then resort to backhand comments like that.
Reuben and Rasik came in with facts in reality. Real-life examples.
Reuben brought in two examples of Zcoin and another coin that took on CPU mining through botnet was a detriment because people now essentially have a money-printing machine. I think if you are making a point of how CPU mining can âuplift communities out of povertyâ as you stated then I want to see the articles on how these communities were uplifted from solely mining on their phone.
You are twisting words around and making baseless accusations when this is one of the honest and most transparent projects around. Money makes things happen. You pointed out there isnât an app to mine with RandomX on Android and iPhone. Where are these developers ready to work for free on pure good intentions? Who will maintain the app?.. for free⌠Who will pay for the marketing, PR campaigns, and everything else needed to inform these communities you claim to help to let them know they can mine on their phone? Advertising costs money⌠As they mentioned Monero is a top ten coin so they can afford to have a flop here and there just like google tried to push things that flopped. You then backtracked on the phone battery fact and then mentioned phones can be used to run a node. With no financial incentive then how will it uplift those communities you mentioned?
You mention hashrate. Its been pointed out its not something to tout because someone could use idle servers to CPU mine. I know and worked with professors in the computer science departments that use university idle servers and labs to mine crypto for âresearchâ with essentially free electricity. When this happens that would mean a higher hashrate so that doesnât mean the project is more decentralized.
Zcoin isnât there yet. We have a stacked roadmap and its good there is foresight on addressing the mining algorithm early. If you feel so strongly then ZCS is a great platform to let your idea rise or fall on their merit. It further decentralizes the project to put it into the communityâs hands. People will have the chance to vote with their money to fund it because anyone can click a button on a poll.
I would lean towards a long term solution. Since ProgPoW has been audited by top firms in addition to a prominent individual that found weaknesses in an earlier MTP paper then that means less work needed to go toward research, submitting papers, paying for audits on a concept that hasnât been battle-tested like oPoW. Iâve been following Zcoin for years and there was a lot of research, time, and I imagine a lot of money that went into MTP. I am much more excited for the team to proceed on mobile access of privacy features of Zcoin on edge wallet plus others, in addition to more adoption. I want to keep hodl and see Zcoin be relevant for decades to come.
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