Tokenomics and Funding: Division of Block Reward Discussion and Community Matching Fund

Regardless of the mining reward, the number of miners and the mining difficulty will balance out to keep mining profitable for the most skilled miners.
The reward distribution between miners and masternodes is completely free, or more exactly, it must reflect the participation of each system in the security of the network.

The bonuses if we increase the masternodes reward are:

  • fewer sales of Firo by miners, therefore upward pressure on the price,
  • miners are not buying Firo for their activity : then lowered their reward does not eliminate any Firo purchase, but only Firo sales,
  • more purchase of Firo by increasing masternodes number,
  • more Firo hold over the long term by masternode holders : less Firo sell.

The balance sheet seems to be clearly in favor of a very large increase in the masternode reward :-).

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First of all thank you for weighing in. We really want to hear miners point of view and I greatly appreciate the time you took to write it.

If you read in one of my posts I’m actually quite okay with having a 35/35 split with miners and masternodes which I agree can be seen as fairer and a less drastic drop.

One thing that I don’t understand is a lot of miners here are saying less mining rewards means less profitability. It is more likely that profitability stays more or less the same but we have less miners on the network. That’s how markets and mining difficulty works…there will never be 0 PoW miners.

But at the end of the day, a lot of the time I see miners saying they’ll switch to Firo for real only after Eth goes to PoS. First of all, we don’t know when that’s happening and secondly it reinforces the view again that miners will mine what’s most profitable. Obviously, there’s no guarantee that once Eth goes PoS that we will see these miners come to Firo but more importantly support us beyond just mining.

While I understand miners need to make money too and cover their investment, what’s a few rigs on Firo now on a pool that’s not 2miners?

There’s nothing wrong with mining the coin that gives the most profit but if they’ll only mine us when it’s the most profitable, do they deserve 50% of the block reward?

Remember, Firo has all this while dedicated so much to GPU miners even developing technologies like MTP and then picking ProgPoW specifically to benefit them, specifically choosing not to go with masternode voting to ensure miners are equal players in governance and giving them the majority of the block reward for 6 years now. I’ve even defended PoW numerous times despite the growing and probably unstoppable ESG narrative that PoW is bad for the environment. Has miners contribution been commensurate?

I see some miners defending their position saying that they provide security to the project…okay then why are a whole bunch of you on 2miners and prior to that 80 percent on f2pool! This was even before chainlocks was a thing and miners were solely responsible for security. Did we see any organised effort by miners to protect us when we were being 51 percent attacked? Do we see miners bothering to use our privacy tech so that it increases the anonymity set?

Of course there are exceptions where we do have cool peeps from the miner community who don’t just mine us, but make content and cover us or give us opportunities to share the project’s vision. I remember a small few pointed a rig or two to us to donate to the project as well and the gesture is not forgotten. But we really need to see more. I remember one mining influencer had said, we need to support projects like Firo that support GPU miners and frankly the support we have seen is lacking. While anecdotal, its ironic that there’s a new post on Reddit of a miner going, can I mine directly to Binance?

Masternode holders on the other hand have for the most part been loyal to the project with them being vocal in our community and their numbers remaining relatively stable despite price fluctuations. They have donated significantly to audits as well. I also can see that a huge bunch of them anonymize their masternode rewards improving Lelantus’ anonymity set.

But again this proposal isn’t just about masternodes vs miners. It’s more about ensuring that the tokenomics reflect the value these communities give to Firo and to also give more power to the community to take the project in the direction they want to see hence the community fund.

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Thank you for the response. And all of your points are valid. A lot of the complaints are an unfortunate reality of a completely decentralized network depending on PoW mining. There are a lot of what I would call “dumb miners”. I would never intentionally mine to any pool with over 50% of the hashrate. But people mine for different reasons.

Nothing is known post-ETH, but I was just trying to give you insight into where myself and other miners mindsets might be. If all things being equal, I had planned to go pretty hard into Firo’s network after the merge.

I hope it works out, but I feel we gave up on PoW too soon. Then again, as to the other repliers comment we don’t know how things will shake out. I just feel the miner reward reduction was far too aggressive. I think a more balanced reduction would have been a more appropriate and measured response to the lack of miner participation and loyalty.

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Emmm, oh lol, my bad

This is a great idea. I am a Masternode holder, but even if I was not the re-weighting of rewards towards those who hodl and away from those who market sell is obviously great tokenomics. The Dev fund is a great idea too. Well done!
When roll out? :slight_smile:

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it is just a proposal comrade, proposal that is fitting for marxists indeed

我同意主节点。firo越来越好 凤凰涅槃

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Thankyou Comrade. The Firo project ticks all the boxes for the environmentally friendly, secure, private, socially conscious crypto comrade.
Mining is less important for coin issuance or security, and so rewards drop in favour of development and MN holders. Makes perfect sense.

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I am curious, if you consider Firo to be shitcoin (as you mentioned above), why you spend time in forum?

You for example cannot find me in forums of coins/tokens I consider shitcoin as it would be stupid to waste time there, no?

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Honestly, I´d be wondering, if we couldn´t get an algorithm to estimate this.
Like in my sense I´d say much as in ETH you´d have to pay a higher Gas fee to be included in the next block the network could determine, which of the two currently deserves a bigger part of the cake. So like:
15% Dev
15% Community
70% Miners and Masternodes devided appropriate to the situation. This could for example take into account, which pool you´re mining to. Like for example currently, a lot of people are on 2miners with over 50% if you also count their solo pool. So since a block found by them isn´t as helpful to the network as a block which would be found by someone truly solomining then adjust accordingly.
So basically punish them for being on the huge pool and reward them for keeping it equalized or Solo.
Like if we had “community pools” and “Solo pools” the solo will always get a set amount if it hits a block, like dunno 40%, the community pool/ larger pool will be adjusted according to network hashrate they participate something like 15-35% the other part obviously going to the masternodes.

Just freely thinking here don´t know if something like this is even sensible at all or if it has a huge flaw.

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If miners reward will decrease let say to 10%, what will really happen?

If most of them sells immediately to market and are not really much beneficial for project, will it be really issue? As less miners who some kind of believe in project will stay. And those who stays will get lower difficulty thus will be making profits even with less monthly rewards.

While that would be the diplomatic choice, I don’t think it would be the right one for the project. The project would still be overpaying, so we would still have this issue. It would mean limiting the potential incentive for growth and therefore the health of the project to benefit a group that is ‘on balance’ least loyal and less essential.

I don’t think the project has the luxury not to make the most efficient/beneficial decisions. This project while very promising, is very small and slipping down rankings into obscurity. I know I’m not the only one thinking this, as someone else here said something about ‘diversifying’. The risk/reward ratio of the nodes is currently out of whack and getting worse as we keep slipping in terms of network growth/investment.

A while ago I was doing some math, I was considering offloading a few nodes and the associated risk. Then buy GPU’s to build miners so I could then either mine the nodes back or expand the mining operation and mine like a business would. I thought to myself at the time, that would be a pretty crappy thing to do… but the incentive to do it (was) is there, and thats not good in my opinion. This is what I was trying to tell you back in October last year. I think I should have explained myself more and been more blunt tbh.
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Missed opportunities have compounding effects, Firo price stays low, development costs remain higher than they need to be in Firo terms. Big exchange listings remain expensive and out of reach. Donations for projects remain cost prohibitive for a lot of would be donors. As a project we are less attractive to other chains and ecosystems because of this. Then people will complain, then you’l say we don’t have the budget to ‘x’ or ‘y’. The truth is, if the price of Firo was higher, you would have the budget to do a lot more.

Now regarding the direction of Firo and technical development priorities, I have zero complaints. However overpaying for mining has been an issue for me for quite a while. That’s a whole lot of Firo economic energy down the drain.

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To use a fire metaphor. Firo to me is like a flame flickering when trying to start a small fire in a wood stove. The kindling is there providing starter fuel. However the larger logs on top are a little damp. I don’t want to see the kindling burn out before drying up the larger logs above. Then be left watching Firo’s flame fade into the cold night. I want to see Firo reaching its full raging fire potential, and we have the accelerant available.

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Fully agree. We can do diplomatic choices or even don’t change anything to keep miners satisfied, but as soon as something more profitable shows to them they will just move elsewhere anyway.

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Well in their defense, really appreciate DJMine’s efforts to cover us and reading the Youtube comments is heartening. But would really like to see hashrate diversified away from 2miners which would be a clear signal to me that they care. Mintpond and Woolypooly for even Picopool are all excellent pools.

As of today for the 1 month average, 2miners controls 83.884% of the hashrate if you count their main pool (57.928) and solo pool (25.956%) together.

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Mintpond is in my opinion one of the best pools around, I recommend.

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I am a miner and ocassionaly mine Firo.

Every coin I mine I hodl, however because of that, it is evident that I am not your typical miner that mines and dumps daily and I am obviously a minority.

I saw your interview on Djmines channel and I think you came out completely honest and raised a lot of valid observations and concerns regarding miners.

One of the issues you pointed out is that the majority of the minets dump their daily yield on exchanges which got me thinking. Why dont you take away a percentage from the miner rewards and allocate it to a kind of stacking mechanism where the miners that hold the coins they mine get an extra reward for holding it.

Again this is just something that popped up on my mind and I am not an expert to know whether this is technically possible or solves any of your concerns but it might be a way to build a more “loyal” firo miner community whithout distancing the project from miners.

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hello i am new to the Firo forum as of last night thanks to DJ Mine interview with Rauben the CEO of Firo.i am finding that this project is great and i feel it has potential to go somewhere. i like the proposal for the most part. i think the dev team should get a little more than what they are getting now. i am a developer for a big company and sometimes i feel under paid and under appreciated. i also think the master nodes should get a little extra since they are for security but not 50%. that is way too much. my suggestion would be this:
40% Masternodes
20% Dev reward
15% Community Matching Fund
25% Miners
i don’t think anyone should get 50% or higher. that gives them too much power.

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We are sharing our points of view and that is very good.
Consensus seems to go one way, then after one post, a few contributors to get swayed and consensus seems to go the opposite way.
At some point, you will have to decide.
Who is entitled to decide?
Is someone who has never owned Firo as legitimate as someone who mined a few Firo and immediately sold them, is he himself as legitimate who owne thousands of Frio since the beginning of Firo?
I propose that, when it will be time to make a decision, it is done through a individual vote weighted by the number of Firo held by the voters.

Let’s be careful with “good ideas” that come from people who have never shown any loyalty or commitment to Firo.

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Well it will be impossible to get to know who has and how much of Firo considering we are privacy coin.